Wednesday 27 October 2010

The problem with home education forums

It is no secret that I was chucked off a number of Internet lists for home educators after having a couple of articles published last summer on the subject of home education; the idea being that many parents would not feel comfortable about discussing their problems freely if a supposedly unsympathetic character like me were hanging round. This displays a touching naivete on the part of those running the forums. In fact I would be very surprised to find a single home education list which does not have professionals and other people who are not home educating parents lurking on it. These range from civil servants and local authority officers to psychologists and teachers. This is one of the main ways that people outside the home educating community keep in touch with what is going on.

There are two points to consider here. Firstly, is it possible to restrict membership of any of these lists simply to genuine home educators and secondly, is this this a good idea in the first place? The answer to both these questions is 'no'.

My daughter gave me a quick training session in how to go about joining Internet lists under a false flag. Like all young people, she has been on Over 18 only sites since she was about twelve. She tells me that the simplest way to do it is as follows. If for some reason you wish to conceal your identity or the whereabouts of your computer, then go to the local library and book a session on a computer there. Acquire a free Hotmail account in a made up name. Pick a user name like Dreamcatcher or Flowerfairy; something which makes you sound like a gormless and harmless hippy type. Then all you do is use this email account to join your chosen group. I have no idea if this is what others do, but it sounds about right to me. The reason that such subterfuge is necessary is that some forums, HE-UK for example, are specifically forbidden to employees of local authorities and so on. I have to say, when talking to professionals about home education, I am sometimes astonished at the up-to-the-minute knowledge which they seem to have about the politics of the HE world. This information can only have been acquired on Internet lists.

The take-home message here is that when typing stuff about your difficulties in home educating, you can be reasonably sure that it is not only other home educators who will be reading what you write. There is not really any such thing as privacy on the Internet; you are, in effect, broadcasting to the world. Young people understand this more than adults who did not grow up with the Internet. For anybody over thirty, using the Net will never be second nature in the way that it is to a sixteen year-old. This is why it was idiotic for HE-UK, EO and so on to cast me into the outer darkness.

If we accept that this is actually the case, what is the point of turning the presence of educational professionals on home education groups into a secretive business in this way? Why not simply allow them to join openly and take part in discussions like everybody else? I have to say that I am constantly surprised at the level of ignorance and misunderstanding which many people show on these lists. The people posting clearly do not know a great deal about the topics about which they are pontificating. This situation, where only parents are talking to other parents, is a recipe for the proliferation of myths, half-truths and downright falsehoods. Would it not be better to have local authority officers joining in, so that they could put their point of view and talk about their anxieties? Wouldn't this promote a dialogue which might benefit both sides? When parents are talking about dyslexia, for instance, might it not be handy to hear a teacher or psychologist's perspective on this?

It seems to me that what would be a very useful development would be a forum which could be joined openly by parents and professionals alike. Parents could actually ask local authority officers why they behave in the ways that they do. HE advisors could ask parents why some of them seem so secretive. If psychologists, teachers and parents were all talking together in the same place, it could only be a good thing. I should think that it would be inevitable that both parents and professionals would start to understand each other a little more and start to see each other's point of view. The situation at the moment is that professionals talk to each other about the problems they have with home educating parents and parents only talk to each other about the problems which they are having with the professionals. There is little prospect for any sort of change in attitudes by either party while this is how things are in the main. I am aware that in some places, Hampshire, Somerset and North Yorkshire for example, there is positive contact between parents and home educators, but there still seem to be many on both sides who are not talking to each other. The Internet lists seem to me to be the perfect place to start the process of changing this. The alternative might be home educators living increasingly in a psychological ghetto of their own making.

22 comments:

  1. 'I have to say, when talking to professionals about home education, I am sometimes astonished at the up-to-the-minute knowledge which they seem to have about the politics of the HE world.'

    Mmmm....I obviously move in totally different circles, because the professionals I mix with are totally CLUELESS about HE. (Let alone its internal politics!) I'd be astonished if any of them even knew the first thing about it.

    I have along-standing friend who's a consultant clinical psychologist, who the other day told me she thought all HE'ers needed CRB checks and a PGCE! The depth of the ignorance my teacher friends have about HE also continues to amaze me.

    Anyway, moving on to your suggestion. Setting up a forum for the exchange of ideas bwteeen HE'ers and professionals sounded like a great idea on first reading, until I remembered how ignorant the professionals that I know personally actually are. I could imagine most of the time on those forums HE'ers would be correcting inadequate knowledge on the part of the 'experts', about the law and actual practice of HE.

    I'll never forget the time my children were running around playing with loads of other children after church, chatting and having lots of fun. As they laughed and played, a friend (a lecturer in Child Deveopment at the Open University) asked me with a concerned look on her face, 'Aren't you worried about their socialisation?' I pointed at my children and said, 'Have you MET my children?' She did blush and laugh when she realised how stupid she'd just sounded, but the ignorance and PREJUDICE among professionals about HE can be truly shocking.

    However, I do agree about the ghetto thing. Those lists can be stifling, which is why I left most of them 10 years ago or so. The same people dominate, the same ideas, it's hard for anyone to disagree. Some have become quite cult-like. Look up the definition of a cult and you'll perhaps see what I mean.

    I'm not sure what the answer is. Buit it's good that you are brainstorming ideas, Simon.

    Mrs Anon

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  2. 'the professionals I mix with are totally CLUELESS about HE. '

    I did not mean to suggest that all professionals knew about home education. Only those with a particular interest in it and who are charged with monitoring and developing policies.

    'I could imagine most of the time on those forums HE'ers would be correcting inadequate knowledge on the part of the 'experts', about the law and actual practice of HE.'

    This is absolutely true. I was thinking more about teachers and psychologists supplying information about child development, reading and so on. I dare say that most home educating parents do know more about the legal implications than the average teacher!

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  3. I am aware that in some places, Hampshire, Somerset and North Yorkshire for example, there is positive contact between parents and home educators,

    That is not true about Hampshire unless you are doing home education the Hampshire way many Hampshire LA staff are totally clueless about home education and often get the law wrong over home education to!

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  4. Peter - we have had this debate before, so I am not going to repeat myself endlessly, except to say that any contact you had with the LA, was, by your own admission, several years ago. Since then relationships have improved; you may not have taken part in this because, again by your own admission, you asked to be left alone by the LA and they have done exactly that. I should point out though that the home educator who is most active in these dealings with the LA is in fact NOT a structured home ed type at all, so your postulations about the LA only getting on with a certain type of home educator is extremely inaccurate!

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  5. I personally am not convinced a joint list would be helpful. I dont trust LA's and would feel spied upon. Because of this I would be reluctant to reveal anything personal to them and would fear that if I mentioned a bad day they would be carting my kids back to school.

    It would have to be kept very professional and non-descript(sp?)I am not sure who I would want to 'vet' it and run it either.

    With regard to LAs, I have spoken to our local LA(south somerset) visitor many times, even though I am not personally known and dont have visits, and he is lovely. I would have no problems with him visiting, but what happens when he leaves?
    I do wonder if all LAs are as understanding, and I gather the answer is a huge NO.

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  6. Julie says-you asked to be left alone by the LA and they have done exactly that. I should point out though that the home educator who is most active in these dealings with the LA is in fact NOT a structured home ed type at all, so your postulations about the LA only getting on with a certain type of home educator is extremely inaccurate!

    Hampshire did not leave us alone and kept making threats against us Hampshire LA staff where also clueless about the law on home education. Relationships have not improved and Hampshire LA only like home education if you do it the HCC/Julie way
    We asked for resourses from HCC and David Kirk said no resoures to be given to home educators i have the letter he wrote!
    HCC also fully agreed and submited they thoughts on home education to Badman which included wanting to see child on it own! i got hold of the evidence HCC submitted! HCC wanted a change in the law on home and still does!

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  7. It may not be possible to prevent any non -HE person from joining mailing lists by giving false information, just as it may not be possible to prevent all shoplifting. However that should not stop people stating their rules and dealing with people who are seen to flout them. It makes sense to me that a mailing list would remove someone who was not using the list for its stated purpose - seeking support for their own home education or offering support to others, but was blatantly using it for a different purpose - one that the majority of list users would find objectionable.

    I agree though, that list users should never assume their list is a safe private place to discuss personal information.

    Mrs C

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  8. I've an idea that a joint list was tried and failed due to lack of interest, mainly on the part of LAs. I suspect, if they are interested in lists they are only interested in eavesdropping, not discussion. But I would love to be proved wrong. Why not set a list up Simon?

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  9. Since David Kirk is dead I can't imagine he is in any position to give any resources to anyone....

    ...but it all comes down to the fact that you want the LA to pay for your sons tuition - which they will never do and which most home educators wouldn't support either. Free access to tuition and exams is available at your local school....

    What the vast majority of home educators want locally from the LA is accurate information sent to families, well trained LA professionals who know the law and keep within it and access to specialist services for children with SEN and disablities. They would like support in accessing exam centres and opportunity for feedback to the LA - all of which and more we have been working towards.

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  10. Julie say Since David Kirk is dead I can't imagine he is in any position to give any resources to anyone....

    ...but it all comes down to the fact that you want the LA to pay for your sons tuition - which they will never do and which most home educators wouldn't support either. Free access to tuition and exams is available at your local school....

    cant say we miss Kirk!He was behind the attacks on us! and went along with lies that were told about us.I got the letter he wrote about home education in front of me.Kirk was behind the poilcy for HCC he approved what was wrote to Badman about seeing children on they own did he tell you that when you met him? did he tell you when you meet him that he belived in SAO for parents who do not meet with HCC? it took us more than five years to get to the bottom of what was wrote about us i never seen such a crap service in all my life! The pain that man and his henchmen caused us you just can not describe!
    How do you know that most home educators would not support help towards the cost of the education the parents are giving? cos you say so? lets have some of our council tax we pay to help inprove the education we give Peter!cos Hampshire say no you agree do you? if enough people say we want more resources we have a better chance of getting them. no wonder HCC like you have you thought about working for them?
    They is no free assess to tution and exams at the local school for home educated children in this area?
    you get no support in this area for home education or feedback not heard a word from that Jan Lewis i thought you said she was going to do loads of wonderful things for home educators?
    HCC service to home educators is rubbish or do you only get service from them if you do it the Julie way?
    We working towards the truth you wanna remember HCC work for us we pay they wages Julie we want a first class service from them and so far it is crap! I wonder if Webb might give a better service and thats saying something!

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  11. What I said above still applies; watched your programme tonight Peter. Two things struck me - clearly the remit this time was to show that schools can cope with genius (so home ed was bound to have a raw deal) and that some of the others who had featured before seem to have matured well and come to terms with their gifts.

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  12. "If for some reason you wish to conceal your identity or the whereabouts of your computer, then go to the local library and book a session on a computer there."

    The only point in going to this extreme is if the police are likely to become involved (unlikely in your examples) as they (or a court order) are needed to gain IP address information (such as the exact location of the end computer using an IP address and the bill payers name and address). But even then you would have to take the precaution of gaining a library ticket under a false name and address as most require library membership and booked sessions so that the person using the computer at any point in time can be located. An internet cafe would probably be better, as long as they don't ask for ID. Pay in cash and look out for CCTV cameras too, of course.

    It is possible for a web site owner to gain the IP address of visitors sometimes (it can be hidden using software or by using a proxy server, for instance) but this isn't much use in locating the actual user's address. Most IP addresses are allocated randomly and the address linked to an IP address that a normal internet user will find is usually unrelated to the location of the user and their computer. I think it's the location of the user's internet provider's computers. Try using http://whatismyipaddress.com/ to see what location your IP address gives. I've just checked mine and, according to the RAC route planner, it's located 127 miles away from me.

    "The reason that such subterfuge is necessary is that some forums, HE-UK for example, are specifically forbidden to employees of local authorities and so on."

    All they need is an email address that doesn't give away their name or job. No need for trips to the library.

    "Young people understand this more than adults who did not grow up with the Internet. For anybody over thirty, using the Net will never be second nature in the way that it is to a sixteen year-old."

    Not in my experience. I've had a PC for about 16 years and have been using the internet for at least 14 years, so unless their interest increases or my interest reduces significantly, I doubt they'll catch up (especially as they see computers as a means to an end rather than an something of interest in themselves). They come to me for computer help, not the other way around. You don't have to learn to use computers or the internet as a child for it to become second nature! Just as well universities don't view mature students as you do or they wouldn't stand a chance of entry.

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  13. "An internet cafe would probably be better, as long as they don't ask for ID."

    Or better still, drive around with a laptop until you find an unsecured wireless network!

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  14. 'The only point in going to this extreme is if the police are likely to become involved (unlikely in your examples) '

    Not at all. I mentioned twelve-year olds trying to get on Over 18 sites. Sometimes, they sign up for something with their real details and age and then want to go on a certain part of the site which is age restricted. They then go to the library and start a hotmail account. The point is that once you have been barred from a site for some reason, your computer can then be barred even if you use a different name.

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  15. Julie said...

    What I said above still applies;

    what i said still applies.You get no support in this part of Hampshire for home education and we have not heard a word from Jan Lewis thought you said she was going to do lots of nice things for home educators? maybe webb should take over at Hampshire i think you may get a better service from him!

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  16. "The point is that once you have been barred from a site for some reason, your computer can then be barred even if you use a different name."

    How would they identify you? I must admit it's not something I've tried so maybe you have greater knowledge in this area but I would guess you might need to remove cookies and maybe disconnect and re-connect to your ISP so that you are allocated a new IP address. The only thing that identifies a particular computer is the MAC address and that's not available over the internet.

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  17. 'How would they identify you?'

    It happens automatically; it is not a question of a human saying, 'Ah hah, there she is again!' If a twelve year old joins a site as a twelve year old and then tries to go on an age restricted part of this site, she may be recognised as being too young. The site will the bar her. if, to get round this, she then sets up another email account on her computer, the site will still recognise her. the remedy is to go to another computer. Most parents with children under eighteen might be aware of this sort of thing. Many organisations like to boast that they do not allow children onto their sites. It is a hopeless to try and keep them off them.

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  18. "It happens automatically; it is not a question of a human saying, 'Ah hah, there she is again!'"

    Well duhhh


    "If a twelve year old joins a site as a twelve year old and then tries to go on an age restricted part of this site, she may be recognised as being too young. The site will the bar her. if, to get round this, she then sets up another email account on her computer, the site will still recognise her. the remedy is to go to another computer."

    How will they identify the computer? Either by placing a cookie on it which can be deleted by the user or by logging the IP address which can be changed. Which web site are you talking about, I'd like to take a look at it?

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  19. Youtube don't allow you to change your registered age but you can just register again with a different name and age using the same computer. Don't need to delete cookies, change IP address or anything. Preventing more than one person joining from the same computer wouldn't work, or else adults wouldn't be able to sign up for sites if their teenage children were already using it.

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  20. "It happens automatically; it is not a question of a human saying, 'Ah hah, there she is again!'"

    However, this is the only way a listowner can effectively ban someone from an email list. They can ban individual email addresses, but if that person joins with another email address, the only chance the listowner has of banning them again is if they recognise the way the person writes - which of course results in a lot of suspicion and false accusations at times. Just do a search in Google. I think you've attempted to ban individuals from this site without success, haven't you?

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  21. 'I think you've attempted to ban individuals from this site without success, haven't you?'

    No, I thought about it but decided not to. I just started moderating for a few days, but that ended in chaos as I deleted posts and comments inadvertently, thus precipitating a conspiracy theory!

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  22. Hello! My name is Lena. I would like to share my experiences of home education. But first I will tell my story. I'm from Ukraine. I am 27 years old. At school I always was a good student. My friends were only girls who have studied even better then me. I always «ran» after them. At the institute, I also studied good. I always dreamed of going to the United States. Once it was a competition at our institution. The winner of the contest was to go for the summer in the United States. The organizers of the competition during three months provided work and housing. I immediately signed up for the list of participants. I studied well, so the win of the contest was easy. But I faced with one issue. One of the points of the contest was an English test. I knew English bad. That was my main problem in the competition. I started looking how to solve my problem. I had not enough money, so I could not hire a private teacher. As for me, it was very expensive. I started to think how I can learn English free. I started to surf the Internet. I found a lot of sites. Here are some of them https://essaycool.com/ and https://lingualeo.com , they helped me a lot in learning English. There were many other sites. I also found some good books. So I increased my English to 1-2 level myself. And it was free. I think it's good to learn subjects at home. Many teachers are not professionals. Literature and information on the Internet is really a lot to learn at home. The main thing in this business is to have the desire. Discipline is also very important.

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